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	<title>Comments on: Forbes Says Designers are Snooty</title>
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	<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/</link>
	<description>Join the NO!SPEC campaign and say NO to spec</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 05:53:29 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Red</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-64929</link>
		<dc:creator>Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 21:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-64929</guid>
		<description>Sounds to me like a lot of designers who’s work is not getting them the money they think they should get are pissed because they are being under cut by places like 99, Sounds to me like the free market does not work for designers here,Problem is the market is so flooded with designers and designers looking to get a break,Seems most of you here feel your above the new guy trying to enter this field,and no one else but you should be designing, Oh how we all forget that the Nike logo was done by a rank amateur for 50$

What it comes down to is,your design is no better then the next guys, Its all in how the client views it, They either like it or they don’t,you may think you control there thoughts and visions but you don’t.

So its time to get over 99 and Elance and move on and focus on your own work and if your work is that good then no need to worry about 99 now is there?

Cheer Up Have a great day</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds to me like a lot of designers who’s work is not getting them the money they think they should get are pissed because they are being under cut by places like 99, Sounds to me like the free market does not work for designers here,Problem is the market is so flooded with designers and designers looking to get a break,Seems most of you here feel your above the new guy trying to enter this field,and no one else but you should be designing, Oh how we all forget that the Nike logo was done by a rank amateur for 50$</p>
<p>What it comes down to is,your design is no better then the next guys, Its all in how the client views it, They either like it or they don’t,you may think you control there thoughts and visions but you don’t.</p>
<p>So its time to get over 99 and Elance and move on and focus on your own work and if your work is that good then no need to worry about 99 now is there?</p>
<p>Cheer Up Have a great day</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-63693</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-63693</guid>
		<description>&gt; only pays the winner and the rest get nadda

This is true in any instance, but you need to think more broadly than this. For a designer with talent, they will win some and lose others. Over a year (approximately 2000 hours), they might be able to submit 1000 ideas. A really good designer might win 200 of these contests, at say $500 each. SO, even though they would be &quot;working for free&quot; 800 times, they would still pull in $100K. On the other hand, a really bad desinger would win very little, and would receive very little compensation. Over time that bad designer would probably leave the business for career opportunities that are a better fit for them. 

In the end, the good designers will win out over the poor designers, and will be compensated for their work.

Note: this does not address the question about whether the overall level of compensation for designers will go down. I think it will, but that is what happens when your world opens up and competition scales up dramatically. Designers are facing the same challenges that others are facing when they have to compete internationally for work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; only pays the winner and the rest get nadda</p>
<p>This is true in any instance, but you need to think more broadly than this. For a designer with talent, they will win some and lose others. Over a year (approximately 2000 hours), they might be able to submit 1000 ideas. A really good designer might win 200 of these contests, at say $500 each. SO, even though they would be &#8220;working for free&#8221; 800 times, they would still pull in $100K. On the other hand, a really bad desinger would win very little, and would receive very little compensation. Over time that bad designer would probably leave the business for career opportunities that are a better fit for them. </p>
<p>In the end, the good designers will win out over the poor designers, and will be compensated for their work.</p>
<p>Note: this does not address the question about whether the overall level of compensation for designers will go down. I think it will, but that is what happens when your world opens up and competition scales up dramatically. Designers are facing the same challenges that others are facing when they have to compete internationally for work.</p>
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		<title>By: Article Dood</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-62265</link>
		<dc:creator>Article Dood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-62265</guid>
		<description>A Designer&#039;s Story

Client: I&#039;d like to talk to you about designing my startup&#039;s corporate identity.

Designer: Great, I have a lot of questions to ask you before I can accept the job and give you a price.

Client: OK. Ask away.

[long conversation ensues, extensive notes are taken]

Designer: Based on our very detailed conversation, I am confident I can deliver what you need. For $4,000 I can deliver the results in about 2 weeks.

Client: Excellent. Call me any time if you have additional questions. Now, what if you return and your work is not like what we talked about or what I wanted? Will you try again? 

Designer: Sure, after the first version is delivered, you can pay my rate of $60/hour and I&#039;ll do as much work as you want.

Client: Um. Thanks, but I&#039;ll try Crowdspring first. If they can&#039;t deliver what I like, I may call you back. Don&#039;t hold your breath waiting by the phone, though.

Designer: Darn that Crowdspring. I refuse to adapt. I may be starving, but least I have my integrity.

[later]

Designer at new job: Welcome to McDonalds. Would you like fries with your burger.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Designer&#8217;s Story</p>
<p>Client: I&#8217;d like to talk to you about designing my startup&#8217;s corporate identity.</p>
<p>Designer: Great, I have a lot of questions to ask you before I can accept the job and give you a price.</p>
<p>Client: OK. Ask away.</p>
<p>[long conversation ensues, extensive notes are taken]</p>
<p>Designer: Based on our very detailed conversation, I am confident I can deliver what you need. For $4,000 I can deliver the results in about 2 weeks.</p>
<p>Client: Excellent. Call me any time if you have additional questions. Now, what if you return and your work is not like what we talked about or what I wanted? Will you try again? </p>
<p>Designer: Sure, after the first version is delivered, you can pay my rate of $60/hour and I&#8217;ll do as much work as you want.</p>
<p>Client: Um. Thanks, but I&#8217;ll try Crowdspring first. If they can&#8217;t deliver what I like, I may call you back. Don&#8217;t hold your breath waiting by the phone, though.</p>
<p>Designer: Darn that Crowdspring. I refuse to adapt. I may be starving, but least I have my integrity.</p>
<p>[later]</p>
<p>Designer at new job: Welcome to McDonalds. Would you like fries with your burger.</p>
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		<title>By: Wendy Sheridan</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-56547</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendy Sheridan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:59:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-56547</guid>
		<description>Here via craigslist. Interesting blog, BTW.

It looks like some people figured out how to bring the &quot;American Idol&quot; paradigm into the visual arts field. It saddens me that a high-end magazine like Forbes would stoop to such a thing, but it doesn&#039;t surprise me.

Maybe I should write an article about crowd-sourcing CEOs - that would save companies a lot of money...

One of the problems is that anyone and everyone can now start a business if they have a computer and a connection to the Internet. These people want to look as established and classy as possible for the least amount of money. They are busy selling ebooks to each other that they hired a ghostwriter to write for 100 dollars, listing &quot;secrets&quot; of how to get all this stuff done for next to nothing or free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here via craigslist. Interesting blog, BTW.</p>
<p>It looks like some people figured out how to bring the &#8220;American Idol&#8221; paradigm into the visual arts field. It saddens me that a high-end magazine like Forbes would stoop to such a thing, but it doesn&#8217;t surprise me.</p>
<p>Maybe I should write an article about crowd-sourcing CEOs &#8211; that would save companies a lot of money&#8230;</p>
<p>One of the problems is that anyone and everyone can now start a business if they have a computer and a connection to the Internet. These people want to look as established and classy as possible for the least amount of money. They are busy selling ebooks to each other that they hired a ghostwriter to write for 100 dollars, listing &#8220;secrets&#8221; of how to get all this stuff done for next to nothing or free.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Lucier</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-55997</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Lucier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-55997</guid>
		<description>I came to your site because of a rant of mine on Craig&#039;s list.
I started to read your site and thought to my self...good for you.
BUT, as I continue to read, something else came to mind.

I am a photographer, I remember back in the early 90&#039;s looking for work.
I would go to a few designers and they would show me there stack of royalty-free images they
literally said &quot;This sucks for you dude but I really don&#039;t need you now&quot;.

Now as big business has found it&#039;s way to gut the photo market. they are now
finding the way to gutting the design market. How, well let&#039;s look at the &quot;Forbes&quot;
article, they are cleverly painting you as &quot;snooty&quot;,&quot;too big for your britches&quot; they are
encouraging businesses to &quot;take you down a peg&quot; not to work with you and to distrust you.

I have a mixed reaction to this.
I am no way a fan of big business, but I am also not a big fan of the egos designers have.
You are running into a problem that has nothing to do with the quality of your work.
Your opponents are going after your profession  in a very personal way and are
doing a very good job at it.

If it is perceived that designers are not good people and they they do not deserve your time effort or money.

I remember looking for a way to market my photography skills to work directly with business. I lived in Somerville MA
not very far from Harvard Square. What better place to research than the used book stores right next to one of
the most influential business schools in the country. I search for business and creative.
What I found was a quote that I never could forget, given by a Wall Street executive to the business school in the first have of the twentieth century &quot;Creatives, are like paper towels, you grab one use it up throw it away and grab another&quot;.

The battle we all must fight is our own personnel worth towards each other.
Some of these problems are of your own making.
Most of it will come down to the disrespect that business have with those who &quot;play in art class&quot; while they do the &quot;real work&quot;.
I am not sure how to fight it, but knowing the problem is the first step.

good luck to all of you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came to your site because of a rant of mine on Craig&#8217;s list.<br />
I started to read your site and thought to my self&#8230;good for you.<br />
BUT, as I continue to read, something else came to mind.</p>
<p>I am a photographer, I remember back in the early 90&#8217;s looking for work.<br />
I would go to a few designers and they would show me there stack of royalty-free images they<br />
literally said &#8220;This sucks for you dude but I really don&#8217;t need you now&#8221;.</p>
<p>Now as big business has found it&#8217;s way to gut the photo market. they are now<br />
finding the way to gutting the design market. How, well let&#8217;s look at the &#8220;Forbes&#8221;<br />
article, they are cleverly painting you as &#8220;snooty&#8221;,&#8221;too big for your britches&#8221; they are<br />
encouraging businesses to &#8220;take you down a peg&#8221; not to work with you and to distrust you.</p>
<p>I have a mixed reaction to this.<br />
I am no way a fan of big business, but I am also not a big fan of the egos designers have.<br />
You are running into a problem that has nothing to do with the quality of your work.<br />
Your opponents are going after your profession  in a very personal way and are<br />
doing a very good job at it.</p>
<p>If it is perceived that designers are not good people and they they do not deserve your time effort or money.</p>
<p>I remember looking for a way to market my photography skills to work directly with business. I lived in Somerville MA<br />
not very far from Harvard Square. What better place to research than the used book stores right next to one of<br />
the most influential business schools in the country. I search for business and creative.<br />
What I found was a quote that I never could forget, given by a Wall Street executive to the business school in the first have of the twentieth century &#8220;Creatives, are like paper towels, you grab one use it up throw it away and grab another&#8221;.</p>
<p>The battle we all must fight is our own personnel worth towards each other.<br />
Some of these problems are of your own making.<br />
Most of it will come down to the disrespect that business have with those who &#8220;play in art class&#8221; while they do the &#8220;real work&#8221;.<br />
I am not sure how to fight it, but knowing the problem is the first step.</p>
<p>good luck to all of you.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit Wilson</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-55090</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-55090</guid>
		<description>As a seasoned professional Creative Director/Art Director for forty years within the ad agency workplace, the clients these days only want one thing: cheap, cheap, and more cheap. The advent of the computer ushered in a new era of crap. Buy a computer, software, and presto, you&#039;re a graphic designer? Crap. Creative thinking went into the toilet. Just give the people cheap crap.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a seasoned professional Creative Director/Art Director for forty years within the ad agency workplace, the clients these days only want one thing: cheap, cheap, and more cheap. The advent of the computer ushered in a new era of crap. Buy a computer, software, and presto, you&#8217;re a graphic designer? Crap. Creative thinking went into the toilet. Just give the people cheap crap.</p>
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		<title>By: no-spec</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-55084</link>
		<dc:creator>no-spec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-55084</guid>
		<description>Even those who get paid at Wallmarts get an hourly paycheck. CrowdSpring only pays the winner and the rest get nadda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even those who get paid at Wallmarts get an hourly paycheck. CrowdSpring only pays the winner and the rest get nadda.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon Drury</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-55052</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Drury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 11:25:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-55052</guid>
		<description>When the world changes to reduce the demand of certain tasks, it&#039;s interesting how people react.  I&#039;m sure there were gas stations that were upset at the idea of people pumping their own gas.  

I&#039;m sure there were some companies that were irrate when electronic manufacturing ended the need for hand wiring.  Of course, I wonder what it would do to graphic design costs if a computer cost $8,000.

There is no more milk man.  Sorry.  Walmart is king, like it or not.  Sorry.

Brandon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When the world changes to reduce the demand of certain tasks, it&#8217;s interesting how people react.  I&#8217;m sure there were gas stations that were upset at the idea of people pumping their own gas.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there were some companies that were irrate when electronic manufacturing ended the need for hand wiring.  Of course, I wonder what it would do to graphic design costs if a computer cost $8,000.</p>
<p>There is no more milk man.  Sorry.  Walmart is king, like it or not.  Sorry.</p>
<p>Brandon</p>
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		<title>By: cat</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-54322</link>
		<dc:creator>cat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-54322</guid>
		<description>No prob David. Your site has all the best comments going around on the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No prob David. Your site has all the best comments going around on the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: David Airey</title>
		<link>http://www.no-spec.com/archives/forbes-says-designers-are-snooty/comment-page-1/#comment-52270</link>
		<dc:creator>David Airey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.no-spec.com/?p=170#comment-52270</guid>
		<description>I hope you don&#039;t mind me linking back to the discussion on my blog, Cat.

Here&#039;s a comment from Steve Douglas that&#039;s worth reading:

http://www.davidairey.com/forbes-calls-designers-snooty/#comment-110307</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope you don&#8217;t mind me linking back to the discussion on my blog, Cat.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a comment from Steve Douglas that&#8217;s worth reading:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.davidairey.com/forbes-calls-designers-snooty/#comment-110307" rel="nofollow">http://www.davidairey.com/forbes-calls-designers-snooty/#comment-110307</a></p>
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